Camille Rapacz: Good morning, George.
George Drapeau: Good morning.
Camille Rapacz: So we have to talk really fast and get this recording done because we got stuff to do today. We got places to go, people to see.
George Drapeau: By the way, audience, did you listen to the chat GPT episode and you, did you do your assigned homework? And go ask chat GPT to describe Chat GPT in whatever style you wanted. Huh? Did you?
Did you do your homework? If not, stop this now. Go do that. Take five minutes and come back and type comments.
Camille Rapacz: Okay. Next episode, how to do accountability well.
Yes. Yeah. Talk about following through. Good call. Yeah.
I had even more conversations about chat GPT after we recorded that episode, not because I'd recorded the episode. Yeah. Somebody else brought it up. I was like, wow, everybody's just talking about it. And still as we, you know, make sense a little bit confused about what to do with it.
George Drapeau: Have you had other thoughts come to you since we had our conversation about it, either with others or just in your own head? Or do you just do these episodes and then gone out of your life forever?
Camille Rapacz: I'm sorry, what episode are we talking about?
What happens usually is I discover something else and then I go, shoot, I wish we'd of talk about that in the episode. That's usually what happens. And so just thinking about the different forms of, you know, there's chat GPT barred, there's like different AI's and just talking about the variation of that, talking about more about the impacts, potential impacts.
I don't know, maybe we do another episode on that, but there's, there's definitely been more that's been coming up. I think it's just becoming more part of conversations that I'm having where I don't expect it. So I having happy hour with a couple of women last week and it came up and I was like, Oh, I wasn't expecting it to have come up in this conversation, but it did.
And so I find that kind of interesting.
George Drapeau: Yeah. That is interesting for me. I happen to run into an article. I don't remember what online news source it was, but it was an article that was pointing out that the rage about chat GPT, seems to be the shine is coming off of it. For example, Microsoft made all this news when they integrated chat GPT into Bing.
And it was this kind of brilliant stroke against Google search panic. The Google folks made huge. News and it was a really positive mood, but as it turns out in the time since then, what six months it's been something like that BING market share has not really increased at all. It really hasn't had the effect they had hoped it would at least not yet.
There are a bunch of other startups tha have been doing ChatGPT stuff that started something and they've already been winnowed out. Early technology adoption curves. I don't think it means it's a fad exactly, but it's people who are afraid of what it's doing, don't need to be afraid yet for that reason. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of reality is setting in.
Camille Rapacz: Yeah, I mean, if you think about anything like that that comes out when it's new, everybody's into it in the beginning, trying to figure out what is this and how do I use it and is it beneficial?
And the people that find use for it stick around and people who are like, well, now I know what it is, but not really a big deal for me in my life they move on.
George Drapeau: I personally still think that Microsoft's move to integrate chat GPT into being was brilliant. I think it was really smart that they did that.
And if Microsoft is interested in either sponsoring this podcast or sending Satya as a guest for one of the episodes, we would. Yeah. Not be averse to that. We would be willing to have a conversation, Microsoft, if you wanted to get involved in the podcast in a more meaningful way. And too bad we're not doing to YouTube anymore because you could see that I know airing meaningful the saying Microsoft.
Brilliant move. We welcome you to the Belief Shift.
Camille Rapacz: We would love to share more about your brilliance and your brilliant move.
George Drapeau: Alright, thanks for indulging me.
Camille Rapacz: I think that the chat GPT episode would probably be two or three episodes from this one, so people should by this time have had plenty of time to have done something with that chat GPT episode. And if maybe you missed it, it was episode 53. So go back and check it out if you didn't listen to it yet, because maybe this is your first one. And if it's your first episode of the Belief Shift, welcome, welcome to the Belief Shift.
Camille: Welcome to The Belief Shift. The show that explores. What you really need to know about building a successful business.
I'm your host, Camille Rapacz: business coach and consultant who spent too much of her career working in corporate business performance.
George: And I'm George Drapeau: your co-host and her brother. I'm a leader in the tech world bringing my corporate perspective, but mostly my curiosity.
Camille: Together, we're exploring beliefs about success and how to achieve it. But mostly we're bringing practical solutions so you and your business can thrive.
Camille Rapacz: / All right. Shall we get into our topic? Let's just dive in. Today we are talking about systems and processes and... I had a conversation with a group of other business owners baby business owners, I call them, they're just getting started building their businesses.
We were having a conversation. I'm coaching them in this group environment and talking about the importance of systems and processes in business. And I couched it as, okay, so there's something we got to talk about in business. It can be a little bit boring and a snooze fest, but it's really important.
And here's why. And then dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And afterwards, one of the women said, Hey, I don't think you should talk about it as boring and like a snooze fest because you're not the only one that finds it useful and exciting and like, she basically corrected me in my approach to thinking about this because I think I look at the words and I think they can sort of seem not very exciting or enticing and there are certainly parts of business that are kind of boring and this could be one of them.
But also, some people actually really love this stuff, and I happen to be one of them. So I'm hoping after this that maybe people who aren't that interested, will get a little bit more interested. But also that, people who are really interested will feel even more excited about their enthusiasm about systems and processes because they're so important.
It's so important and critical to running a good business. So that's my backstory.
George Drapeau: Interesting that you got that kind of input from friends, like, Hey, you know, this stuff can be interesting. Why is it not interesting to people? Maybe because of the all the messages that comes around or the way it's delivered to us?
Camille Rapacz: Yeah. I don't know. How was it for you?
George Drapeau: I will tell you one of the things I'm interested in hearing what you say in this episode is focusing on systems. So for me, if I had to pick between the two words, I like processes more than systems when I think about them, I like both, but I favor thinking about processes.
I tend to, to gravitate toward those things more than systems. And I have a harder time with systems sometimes because there are so many people who have such a fuzzy definition of what a system is. It's an abstract word anyway. So it's easier for people to get a lack of clarity around it.
It's one reason why I want to hear you talk about it because you have no lack of clarity about anything.
Camille Rapacz: The thing you said in there that I really want to tap into is how you prefer focusing on process over system, because I think in a way I might be wanting to make the argument for the opposite.
So let's see if I can raise the interest in thinking about systems more than process.
Defining Systems & Processes
Camille Rapacz: So like with everything, guess where we're going to start? We're going to start with defining it. Definitions. It has to start with a definition. So what are we actually talking about when we say systems and processes?
So here's the definition of a system. A system is a set of things working together as part of an interconnected network or mechanism. Already that sentence sounds like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, what do we actually say?
Yeah. One of the problems with, as you said, it's harder for your brain to go to the system thingy, I totally get that. It's another way, so think of it as a set of processes, tools, people, and strategies working together to solve a problem or achieve a goal. That's how I wanted to think about systems.
And you notice that within there then was processes was part of the definition. So a process is a series of actions or steps carried out in an organized manner to achieve a particular end. So a goal or an outcome. So systems can contain several processes as well as these other components, tools, strategies, etc.
And we talk about both because the process lives inside of a system. And a system is going to contain processes, so they're connected, like peanut butter and jelly. They go together. So we talk about both because also a business is a system. What? Yes. And as a system, it is a system that contains other systems.
So it's a system made up of other systems. So there's the main system of the business. And then within that, your business has other systems that are making it go. And those are things like you have financial systems, you have supply chain, you have sales and marketing, HR, operations, customer service. All of those things are typically thought of as functions in a business.
But when we think about them as functions, we end up thinking about them in their silos, and this is where the trouble begins. If you think about them as systems that are also connecting together to create the larger system of your business, then you start breaking down the silo thinking and you start having more systems thinking.
And this is actually at the heart of a lot of problems that businesses run into is that they're so siloed in the way that they operate and that they work. And it's not the reality of how the business is actually running. You know, financial systems aren't running independent of what's happening in HR. Because HR is making decisions that will impact financials and financials are making decisions that will impact HR.
Thinking about them collectively as a system and working together is much more valuable than thinking about these as functions that just work independently in your business. Does that make sense?
George Drapeau: Makes sense to me. I have comments about this, but it makes perfect sense to me.
Camille Rapacz: Go make comments. So clarify.
George Drapeau: I like how you set the table here. This is exactly what I wanted to hear from you about how your explanation of systems sits very well with me. It's, it's good. It also brings to mind something that you and your husband turned me on to recently, which is Ted Lasso. So I've just finished watching Ted Lasso.
And Without, I don't think this is a spoiler, but in the third season, Lasso has this epiphany about coaching and he introduces a new way of them playing the game. And the whole thing about it that works is that it is a completely new system and everybody on the team has to understand not only their part, but everybody else's part.
They're thinking systems, not individual. And this is the opposite of, I'm going to go away from Ted Lasso and go back to what we've talked about before, which is the original Henry Ford assembly line, which was designed explicitly not to be systems thinking, but to break down people's work into a very small chunk so that you could train people quickly and have them isolated.
That was his thinking was it was more efficient and for a certain class of work it was, but it destroyed a different kind of thinking that Demming had to kinda reassemble in Japan post World War II when he got people to the assembly line to understand what else was going on. And make decisions that way.
Anyway, If you want to buy into systems thinking it's hard work, you're putting more burden on your individuals. But if you do, you break down silos. Silos are in general, they're easier to manage to, but they're harder to get value from.
Camille Rapacz: Yes. So you went started to go in this direction when you were starting to bring up the Henry Ford and Deming and this takes me down to what we've talked about before, which is the lean performance, continuous improvement. So within that, there is this concept of a value stream.
And the value stream is the value that you're bringing to a customer across, and so it's basically the value stream streams across many of the silos as we're talking about them. And when you start to think about process that way, and you start to think about, Oh, it's not just sales who's responsible for sales.
There's also a component to making sure sales go well in customer delivery. Because if I don't deliver well, then the salespeople can't rely on what they're saying they're going to be able to sell that they're going to be able to deliver it. And that's going to impact reputation, which will impact future sales.
So there's these relationships that are having across these different departments. And that might be like the most obvious one, but there's a lot of them that are not as obvious that are happening. And it was funny you brought up Ted Lasso too, because I was thinking about, imagine the systems are all connected by threads.
And they do that exercise where they connect to each other. So those of you who haven't seen it, if you haven't, you must watch it. But if you have, you know, it's a hilariously disastrous outcomes, but that's the way you think about it, right? As we have all these threads that are connecting all these things together.
And some of them have much tighter connections to each other. Some of them have looser connections to each other, but understanding those connections is what matters. So the way that this works when you start thinking about systems thinking is that when you're going to make a change in one part of the business, it's going to have an impact on another part of the business.
So if I make a change, like what I just described in sales and marketing, it'll have an impact to customer delivery, or frankly, several other parts of the business. Now that impact might not be significant, but it is having an impact and you want to understand what that is. If I change this in my department, how will it impact the department that's upstream and downstream from me, is one way to think of it in the value stream thinking.
That work came to me from somewhere, and then where is it going to go from here? And so thinking about that ripple effect or how does that impact as you think about the threads of all these interconnected systems is how you get, as you said, it might seem I think people tend to not go there or companies stay in their siloed thinking for the all the reasons that you just said, because it's frankly just easier.
It's simpler to just think about it hR, do your job. Finance, do your job. You guys don't need to talk to each other. Just do your things. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But it is definitely reducing the value and the performance that you can get out of this business. Yeah. That is like at the heart of the thinking around value stream thinking around systems thinking, is how do I get a higher performance from this business?
And it is by thinking more like the system.
What I will say is once you start to have more systems thinkers in your company, things start to get much more fluid. I feel like there's a, a difficulty in transitioning to that way of thinking, but when you are there, even though you're thinking in a more complex way, things kind of get easier. You know what I mean? Like some of the problems that you were creating from the siloed thinking start to melt away because you realize, Oh, we just need to work differently from a system's perspective. And so even if it might feel like it's more complicated, it will actually ease the problem. So I don't want to scare people off from this thinking like, Oh, that's just too hard. And I don't want to do it. And my business is too small and simple to think about it or whatever you might be thinking.
No matter how big or small your businesses, even if you're just a solopreneur thinking about your business as a system and how everything connects together, we'll save your bacon later.
George Drapeau: I agree.
I just joined this company and we had an all hands earlier this week, early in the week. And the CEO was talking about a bunch of stuff, our quarterly results, which are good. Yay. We're doing great. And some policies about our hybrid work policy coming to the office several days a week. We've got to do it.
And he was also talking about how we need to change our thinking from a disconnected siloed company to full cross portfolio, exactly this, everybody basically, he didn't use the word systems, but what he meant was think more systems, think more about how we fit into the whole, think more about the whole portfolio, not just your little piece.
This is one of the reasons we have this podcast. These kinds of problems happen everywhere. Small companies, large companies, governments, everywhere. You see it all the time. I'm just using this example last week, literally last week at my new company had this problem come up in an all hands call.
And the CEO is telling everybody, I need everybody to think more systems.
Camille Rapacz: Yeah. 100%. I love hearing that because it is, and companies can kind of go in and out of this because it really is the job of leadership to take companies into this place of having more systems thinking. Leaders are responsible for encouraging that, right?
So you encouraging your team to, Hey, why don't you go check with so and so over in that other department and let's collaborate with them on this because I have a feeling this is really going to have an impact with them. That's a choice that you make to tell your team to go do that. So you're creating the environment for working more across the silos.
Yes. The other thing I've seen show up is if an organization is siloed into, this will happen in bigger organizations, but it can happen in smaller ones too, but you definitely can see, where that company has these silos where they almost turned into these little clicks.
That have their own little micro cultures and they start to conflict. So there's a company I work with that has this right now where it's like, wow, all of these different areas really do have different cultures. And so we'll talk about a problem in the company that we want to solve. So we're working on leadership development program.
And what do we want to focus on? And what are the most urgent problems that we need to solve here? And we'll start talking about a problem. And then we talk about, but where is this actually happening? It turns out it's really only happening in this one local place. It's not happening in all of these locations.
And that's really important because if you start to put out solutions to everyone, that's really just to solve the problem for a fraction of the people. Everyone else is like, what's going on? were we doing it wrong? Very confusing, right? And sometimes we try and do that because we don't want to call them out.
But then at the same time, it's you're being disrespectful to the other people who don't have this problem. So silos can create that they can create this problem where you have these micro cultures that you're having to address. And that's just actually fortifying people within their own silos. In both directions.
Like, Hey, we don't have that problem. So we're just going to go over here and do our thing. And you guys worry about your problem and vice versa, right? Well, you don't have the same challenges we do. You end up with all of that sort of tension across teams and it definitely reduces effectiveness.
George Drapeau: Yeah. It's a hard one to fight. I find when I hear that kind of pushback, like, yeah, no, we really are different. Your rules don't apply to us. No. Cause you've got a mindset thing going on there and that's really hard to fight.
Camille Rapacz: Yes. It is really hard to fight. But I think it's an important aspect. You know, when we think about, again, we started talking about systems and processes and we're ending up talking about mindset and there's a reason for that.
That's the reason, right? Like you can't, you can't unwind these things. We think about the systems and processes as just being about things that we do, but it's humans that are doing them. And so the expectations we have of what processes they're going to operate, how the system is going to function collectively, us setting expectations as a business about how those will happen is setting the tone for people and how we expect them to approach work.
Because we're defining work. I can write a process that defines how to do a very specific set of actions to achieve an outcome a lot of different ways, I can do it in a way that has all sorts of a flowery extra steps that makes everybody happy and feel good.
I can write it in a really like tight, direct, like you have a minimal time to get X amount of work done, how much quality I want to put into this process. Like all of these things affect. The process can be written in so many different ways, and there's all these decisions you make, and those decisions come down to a company's culture and how they want to operate.
What's the level of quality we want to provide? What's the way that we want to collaborate and work together on processes? All of those things come through in the process that you set up. And at the end of the day, when we look at people, And how people are performing in a company more often than not, if people are, I'm air quoting failing, if they're not able to perform up to snuff, most of the time you can point back to a process failure, not a people failure.
Either a lack of process, a lack of definition. And so that person just went and did the best that they could with the information they had or the process itself is not written well. Maybe it didn't adapt to some new things going on in the company. So this is another reason why when you think about the systems and the processes, it is so important because it's actually sending messages to your employees, to everybody that works there about how we expect work to happen.
And you want everybody to have the same message about that. And so if you ignore these things, people are making up their own. Yes. And like what you said about process and how it feel, what did, what was the word you use? Like it puts you at ease, I think that's how you were saying it. Yeah. There's a reason for that.
If it's a good process, it builds confidence in you. Like, Oh, we're all following this process. I feel great about that. I don't have to worry so much about what's happening there because I know they are following this process, then we're going to get this outcome.
George Drapeau: That's exactly right. I agree.
Camille Rapacz: We agree. Thank goodness. We agree. That's my primary reason for why I think this matters when we talk about processing systems is at the heart of it, you have to get all of your people lined up around how we expect work to happen and not just say, Hey, just go do your job.
Don't just abdicate that. But it also is the way that you create efficiency and productivity in the company. It's how you get consistency and quality control and what you put out. So what level of quality I want to actually deliver in my company. You do it through good systems and processes.
It's how you mitigate risk. It's how you handle training and onboarding, and it's how you make your business able to scale. If you don't have systems and processes, you absolutely can't scale a business.
George Drapeau: Cannot scale. No way.
Camille Rapacz: George is shaking his head. I'm shaking vigorously. Vigorously if you can see it. So I'm curious, George, if you have seen businesses that get this wrong. What do they get wrong or what do they miss about the importance of focusing on systems and processes?
George Drapeau: I can think of two different ways. One of the things that I think businesses get wrong about the importance of systems. I'll explain it this way. It's the same thing that we individuals get wrong about lawyers and healthcare professionals. So the thing about lawyers is we often think of lawyers as we spend a lot of money, get lawyers to tell us what's legal and not and then tell us what to do and that's not what they're for.
I mean, they are there as legal counsel to support your decisions. You tell a lawyer what you want to do. Their job is to help you find a path to do that, navigate the legal and illegal rocks in that path. But they're not going to tell you what to do. That's not what they want to be doing. They want to advise you about how best to achieve your goal.
You're in control. They're the council.
Same thing with healthcare, healthcare professionals. If you ever have this experience where, you know, you're passively being treated. You don't like how it's going. And then you change to actively talking to health care professionals say, no, the last time I was here, they did this procedure this way.
I need you to do it this way. This is what I need. A lot of times the healthcare, especially the nurses will say, oh, Cool. That you're taking control of how you want things done. Yeah, absolutely. They're there to serve you, not you to serve them. The same thing with systems. When a system is put in place, sometimes people think we're here to serve the system and it's exactly the opposite.
You build a system to serve you better. To me, that's the problem I see companies get wrong over and over again that the system is this monolith that you have to bow and pray to. That's no, that's not it.
Maybe you need to bend around the system this particular time to serve you better. Maybe you haven't implemented it well enough, but you're thinking about it wrong. If you're thinking I'm out of pain, the system will got it wrong. No, it's backward.
Camille Rapacz: That's spot on.
What I see consistently showing up is there is something about, and we do this individually to ourselves too, by the way, I see it show up when I'm coaching an individual on their personal performance is this resistance to wanting to create a personal management system or create processes to follow that we want to follow ourselves to make work easier, to be more productive.
We have this resistance because then we feel like we have lost control. Like no, I need to be able to change quickly. I need to be able to pivot quickly. I can't be burdened by this structure of these rules I'm supposed to follow. And I think that's the crux of it is it looks like rules I'm supposed to follow that are inhibiting my creativity or my ability to pivot quickly.
Yeah, when it's actually the opposite, because if you have good systems and processes, and they're well documented, and you understand what outcomes you're supposed to get from them, you can quickly see when they're starting to fail you. And then you can pivot quickly and fix it. But usually what happens is people are realizing they need to pivot or adjust or change anything about how they're operating their business or running their department or doing a project, whatever it is you're working on.
And because they don't have good systems and processes in place, they realize it much later than they otherwise could have. And so the problem's gotten really big by the time they noticed it when they could have noticed it when it was smaller. If they'd had those structures in place cause you could easily see that if it's supposed to normally go like this, but I start to see these anomalies of like something else is happening, I can react more quickly.
If I don't have any of that structure and everything's kind of always in a, whatever we want to do mode, how do I know when something's off? Really hard to notice until it gets really big. And that's the problem I see companies making over and over again is they're just not paying close enough attention to those systems and processes and monitoring them so that they know when things are starting to go off sooner rather than later, before it becomes a big fire.
They're like, Oh, there's a little bit of smoke here. Let's do something about it instead of, Oh, now we've got this big raging fire and it's all hands on deck. That's usually what I see happening. And it's kind of the idea of, I relate it to almost like having insurance.
Like you need to have these in place to prevent, you know, cause something's, cause something dangerous is going to happen down the road. And I need to have it in place, but I think people resist it the way they kind of want to resist insurance. Like, oh, we're never really going to need that. Oh, I see.
We're fine. We're going to be okay. We don't really need that. Nothing bad's going to happen. So it also kind of serves from that perspective as well. But yeah, I think yours is spot on just not wanting to have something that is telling you what to do or controlling you.
And it's really the opposite. This is a tool for you to be even more in control of what's going on than you would otherwise be. It's a false sense of control when you don't have any of this stuff in there.
George Drapeau: Say that again.
Camille Rapacz: There's a false sense of control when you are not specifically saying these are my systems and processes and you're saying, Oh, I got this because I can make decisions on the fly now. We feel like that's being in control because I can change things on a whim and I can do, I don't have anything telling me what I should do, but that's a false sense of control.
That's not actual control over what's happening in the business. Having strong systems and processes designed and continually updated, that is the ultimate control over outcomes of your business.
George Drapeau: You know, that reminds me of performers, musical performers, but also actors and when they improvise, especially jazz musicians are the perfect example of this. If you don't know how it works, if you don't know how music works or jazz performance, you think, wow, how are they able to create this stuff on the fly? And the only reason they can do that is because they've literally spent years studying theory and working the system of music. into their muscle memory, deep, deep, deep into their brain. Only then can they really improvise.
They don't do it without a system. They just don't. If you ever could see behind the scenes, a jazz musician rehearse, spend hours doing scales and arpeggios the systemic stuff.
Camille Rapacz: Yeah. It is unfortunate that most of the best sort of creative examples that we have, we don't really understand all of that structure that lives underneath it, but it all has it. It all has its own version of processes and systems and structures that are allowing for that level of creativity.
And they probably have the more creativity, probably the more structure it's got underneath it to support it, to enable it. Right. Right. Right. Deeply
George Drapeau: ingrained.
Camille Rapacz: Yeah. Good example. All right. So let's bring this back to our belief shifts. Does it bring any to mind for you?
George Drapeau: Systems over chaos. I'm going to go with that for a hundred.
Obviously. I, I mean, I think this is not too much of a stretch to say planning and over winging it. Totally.
Camille Rapacz: You hit those top three systems over chaos, obviously it's what we're talking about.
You definitely want that planning it over winging it. Yeah. Plan out your process. So you have specific outcomes that you, you know, will consistently get, and then building that foundation and not just doing quick fixes. This is the, you know, don't be in firefighting mode. Don't just be randomizing things, build a foundation of solid systems and processes.
And if you're not doing it at all. Start around the stuff that really matters. The stuff that is feels the most chaotic. What keeps you up at night in your business? And go focus there first. Focus on those places that are really, you know, you know what they are, and you're either running your team or running your business, whichever you're, you're doing, there's something that's bothering you that's like, I don't know how that's going to go, or I never really feel confident about this area.
That's a great place to start. That's cool. Any takeaways or advice that you have for our audience about systems and processes before we jump out of here?
George Drapeau: This is a great framework. So listen to my sister, I would say. And also, I don't know if you get this out of it. It's the systems don't have to be this huge concrete wall that you're building.
It doesn't have to be that, that big. You don't have to be intimidated. I think the last thing that you just said was thinking about if you're not sure where to start, start with the parts of business that's just, you know, you know what, where you are, where you. Can you easily start building up systems?
That's a great tip. Start there. Try to just articulate to define what's something around you already know.
Camille Rapacz: And start with the process. So like you said, in the beginning process is much easier to wrap your head around. So just start by saying, okay, what processes do I have? And how are they serving me?
Am I even following them? Right. That's sort of level one is, did I write a process that I don't even follow? Or do I have processes that I know I'm doing, but I've never actually written them down to see if I'm actually consistent with them or if I'm doing what I think I should be doing.
Am I skipping steps along the way? And it turns out that's, what's causing me problems? But definitely use it as a tool to fix something. Like, is there a problem happening in your business that I should fix? And how can I start by just looking at the process that is around that problem and start looking there first. Maybe there's something missing in it, or maybe we're doing a step wrong, or there's some information missing.
You just never know until you actually start to look at it and write it down. But writing down your processes is important. Thinking about how the processes connect together in a system is then the next level of thinking. So if you're new to definitely start with the process, but do not forget. That it's all part of a bigger system.
And that systems thinking is definitely going to help you with down the road. As either things are building, growing, whatever you're trying to do in your business, even if you're not trying to grow and you're just trying to make things run more smoothly, this is definitely the place to go that will help you out.
Camille Rapacz: So that's all I have today on systems and processes. I would love to hear what everybody else thinks about it though. So please leave us a voicemail. Maybe you've been working on this, maybe you're just brand new to it. Maybe you're somewhere in between. Let us know what's happening with you with systems and processing.
What other questions that you have around this? We would love to answer more questions on the podcast. So you can go to the belief shift. com and they'll see a little voicemail widget and you can leave us a voicemail there.
If you, on the other hand, are like, I just need help getting this systems and process and what have you sorted in my business, well, call me because that happens to be something I'm very good at.
You can set up a free consultation with me. Go to CamilleRapacz. com slash book a call. That's all just one word, book a call, or there'll be a link in the show notes. So you can go there. I would love to chat with you about what's happening in your business and your team and whatever you might need help with. Maybe I can send you in the right direction.
All right. That's all I have for today. George, anything else from you?
George Drapeau: Nothing else for me. It was lovely talking with you both before and during recording.
Camille Rapacz: Yeah, we actually talked more off. No, we did talk more on recording. It was a, yeah, maybe it's 50 50. Yeah, that was quite a lot of conversation.
All right. This is why I have to book like 90 minutes to do one 45 minute podcast. All right, George, I will talk to you next week and everyone else will be back in your ears next week.
George Drapeau: /See everybody have a great week.