Camille: Good morning, George.
George: Hey there. Good morning.
Camille: Have you been watching the Last of us? No, on h b O Max. Oh boy. You need to. So I here. Everybody needs to.
Camille: It's actually awesomely written and well done. And , it does segue into today's conversation because I . Was thinking about how it's so good because it's not any one thing. So it's based on a video game and it's about zombies. So you would think it would be like zombie, scary horror show.
Camille: Yeah, and it's not. Like in one episode there's love and then there's terror, and then there's these heartfelt moments and it's got this balance, which is what we're talking about, this idea of balance in the storytelling, huh. And the swinging back and forth into those two places is it makes it so good.
Camille: So good. That's cool. Yeah. So I think you will definitely enjoy it, but also Pedro Pascal. Love that dude.
INTRO
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Camille: Welcome to The Belief Shift. The show that explores. What you really need to know about building a successful small business.
Camille: I'm your host, Camille Rapacz: small business coach and consultant who spent too much of her career working in corporate business performance.
George: And I'm George Drapeau: your co-host and her brother. I'm a leader in the tech world bringing my corporate perspective, but mostly my curiosity.
Camille: Together, we're exploring beliefs about success and how to achieve it. But mostly we're bringing practical solutions so you and your business can thrive.
Recap
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Camille: So today is a part two of a conversation we started last time, which was talking about this idea of high performance and how this can lead us into extreme thinking.
Camille: So it can either be that we think we should sacrifice everything to achieve this high performance. You can see a lot of people, like motivational people talk about, , doing these extreme things. I don't know. I think doing the ice plunges are extreme or . Yes. Some of the morning routine stuff is really extreme.
Camille: Like get up at 5:00 AM not 6:00 AM get up two hours before everybody else. Like there's these extreme ideas around what you should do to achieve high performance. And that causes some people to then swing the pendulum completely to the other side. Yeah. The other extreme, which is I reject all of it.
Camille: I'm not doing any of it. Anything that's labeled as high performance is gonna make me run. Yeah. And so they choose not to engage in any of it. So it's this , I'm all gonna do all of it, or I'm gonna do none of it. And I see this as a recurring theme in lots of things that we do, lots of ways that we approach work life.
Camille: And of course we're talking about business here, that it's either gotta be one way or the other. Cuz we want to simplify things and so we take our attention towards one way or another way and we translate these things very literally. Like sometimes when we hear the statements that of what we're supposed to achieve, we translate them literally into how we're gonna act.
Camille: I get it. It makes sense that we're doing it because we want simplicity in our solutions. Yes, we want an easy fix. So, someone says, , don't do this. Go do that. We go, great. Thank you for telling me the one thing I should do. But the answers that we all really need are far more complex.
Camille: Yeah. Not too complex for us to handle, that's why we run from it. Because there is some complexity there. But when you get comfortable with the complexity of it, . There's actually some freedom in there too . So I wanna continue this conversation today cause I think it's really important, especially, I've got two more examples that we can talk about.
Camille: Okay. And how we approach this so that we don't have to create so much anxiety or so much tension around the concept of high performance in order to be high performers.
Camille: It also to me feels like, let's take a more human centered approach to high performance.
Camille: Yeah, for sure. Not trying to make us be, robots that can work at these extreme levels that don't have, actual things happening in our lives.
George: Well, my first thought about these extreme recommendations. Get up at five or four or three to beat everybody else truly, and then start with a five minute ice cold shower. And it's like, I cannot do that. But I wonder if part of the rationale behind that is you're speaking to an audience of people who are gonna get up at 10 or 11, and they don't have any habits or routines built in.
George: So their whole day is faced with nothing but active choices, which slow us down. Like, what am I gonna eat for breakfast? I don't have a routine, so I gotta think about that. Where am I gonna do, it's the first thing I said. I don't have a routine, so I gotta figure it out. If your advice is, well do this extreme thing.
George: Maybe the point doesn't literally do that extreme thing, but start with the same thing every morning. I mean, I don't think that's all what's going on with the extreme people. I think they're trying to get attention but also introduce routine.
George: What do you think?
George: Oh, I think you're spot on. Two things that you said I think that are most important and stand out to me is one, the extremes show up in the way people are talking about him and teaching him, because that's what grabs your attention.
George: Yeah. Yes. So that's part of it. And it's a clear, simple way to do it. Yes. Which is part of the point of grabbing attention is be really crisp and clear about the thing. So that's part. Yeah.
George: The second part is we then tend to adopt the statements too. Literally, not all the time. Yes. And not everyone, but we can look at these things and be like, I literally need to do these things that they laid out.
George: Yeah.
Camille: And we assume that because this person is successful, that if I do exactly the same morning routine that they do, I too will become successful. That literal translation is hurting us. Yeah. And that's what I mean when I say we don't have balance in how we think about what high performance means to us.
Camille: When we lose that balance by either accepting all of it or rejecting all of it, like you said, like have some routine. It doesn't have to be the ice bath, some people like the cold shower thing in the morning. If that works for you, do it. Yeah, but don't decide that. If you're not doing it, you're not doing all the things to be a high performer.
Camille: Yeah. Yeah. Balance, find balance. Find the balance that works for you. So that's the whole point of this conversation is instead of thinking high performance, requires me to do some extreme things that will forever make me uncomfortable or forever I will dread doing or whatever it is.
Camille: Yeah. What if you thought about it in terms of, how do I swing the pendulum back and forth in these different spaces? Because it's also ongoing. It's not like you define your high performance routine, for example, and then it's forever, thus. It's gotta change too. So it is the balance on a regular basis, but also continuing to over time, balance that out.
Camille: There's periods of your life when you're much more intensely focused on works. And then there's other periods of life when you're not.
George: Yeah.
Rest is Productive
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Camille: And that takes me to our next example, which is this one about productivity versus rest.
George: What do you mean rest? There's no rest. Only productivity for high performance.
Camille: Exactly . So if productivity is the ability to work efficiently to achieve maximum output over a period of time, this is basically what all businesses should be doing. Yeah. We need to work efficiently, maximum output, that's what we're heading towards. It is essential for every business.
Camille: However, in order to actually be productive, productivity actually starts with the humans doing the. And in order for humans to do good work, they need rest. They do. So rest is essential for every human being. And when we go to the extremes of, well, one of the things I was thinking about this was how we even go to extremes and thinking about, I am going to be productive now and then next week I'm gonna not be productive while I'm on vacation.
Camille: And I feel that mentality is partly messing us up because not being productive equals bad. Hmm. So if we say, oh, I'm not being productive now because I'm reading a book. If we do make that literal translation again of what productivity is, I'm not doing actual work. I'm enjoying a book or I'm doing this thing, we can give this negative connotation to the idea of rest.
Camille: Yeah. Instead of thinking No rest is a part of my productivity cycle. What are you thinking?
George: Makes sense to me. But there's something that's something else going on here. I have had that attitude where like I'm taking time off and I tell myself I'm not being productive.
George: I don't think of itself as I'm taking a refresh week. , I say I'm, I'm gonna be non-productive. Then, I mean, if I say I'm gonna be non-productive for three weeks and I don't have work with me, I will start to relax. That will happen. Cause I'm physically not dealing with work all the way if I really stay away from work.
George: However, what also happens if I tell myself I'm not being productive is like it's stewing in me. I'll think, ah, I'm on vacation, but I'm not being productive and so I'm not really letting go of the work cause I'm stewing on it. That mindset change, I think that's so. Yeah, I was gonna question you say, look, really, what do you care what you call it?
George: As long as you take the time away from work and you fully stay a away, and mostly that does have the intended effect except for you kicking yourself.
Camille: That's my point. Yes, you perfectly. I think that one of the challenges we have is even if we do take the break, If we feel guilty about it. Yeah. If we're shaming ourselves about it.
Camille: Yeah. If we're ruminating on the work we should be or could be getting done. Yeah. But no way am I gonna get caught with my laptop now because I'm on vacation and my partner's gonna kill me if they see it. But in the back of your head, like, how could I sneak in some work?
Camille: That's taking away from the whole point of the rest period. It is because we have these extreme ideas about what productivity means, and we don't value rest the way we should be. We don't value it as like, what? It's really important that I disconnect from work so I can do better at work later? But also so I can be better at this other parts of my life that aren't work.
Camille: Yeah, it affects both.
Camille: Absolutely.
Camille: So it's pretty clear cut when you think about this from a productivity to a rest standpoint as I'm on vacation. Or not on vacation. But what about during the week?
George: Or during the day? I have a question about that too. But during the week first.
Camille: Week or day.
Camille: When you're in it and it's not a scheduled thing, or maybe it is. So there could be, I'm gonna mm-hmm. Take a scheduled lunch break where I'm not working and I'm doing, enjoying this time with this person. I do that. And when you're on a lunch break with that person, is it easier to enjoy the moment or are you still like, I should really get back to work?
George: I have to train myself for this. I forced myself to keep my lunches free of work, free of meetings, because otherwise everything was getting double and triple booked and not that period of time, but when I didn't designate any time for being away during the work day, then everything was fair game for double and triple booking.
George: I don't know why that happened. I'm digressing here, but when I made my lunch break, my lunch break and not work, double and triple booking became off limits.
George: So then during the lunch break, I mean, I give myself permission not to do work stuff and if I'm eating lunch at my desk, I'm not eating lunch while I'm reading my work email, I'm letting myself go down that TikTok rabbit hole or something.
George: Or if I'm going out to meet somebody for lunch, because I've given myself permission to do lunch and not work, I can be fully present with my friend and that's great.
George: But it took me a while to get into that mode where I'm off the clock. I can be present elsewhere.
Camille: Do you notice a difference, like in how you feel about work in general when you do that?
George: Absolutely. What happens is for maybe the first 50 or 55 minutes of that hour, I am good. I am relaxed. I know I've let work stuff go. I know it can hang out and I feel great. Around the 10 minutes to one o'clock mark, I start to get tension. Like I have one o'clock call or I have to get back to work or something, so I don't have a full hour of really feeling forward, but most of it though .
George: And during that, most of an hour, I'm calm, I'm happy, I'm centered, I'm guilt-free. I come back. I mean it really is a, a little refresher. I do come back running.
George: And I'm not multitasking my brain is the other thing. Yes. So my cognitive load is lower.
George: I'm really am less anxious cause I'm not spinning.
Camille: I love that. When we think about taking that break and not thinking about work, there's also the like you've probably moved through the phase of your life where you felt like you had something to prove by I work all the time and therefore that means I add value.
Camille: And that's something that I see lots of younger, either business owners or business leaders doing where they're work, work, work, work, work. Because they feel like, this is how I prove that I'm really a valuable you. Human being. Yeah. Or employee if you're working in a company.
Camille: But even if you're running a company, you're doing it to basically show everybody, look, I'm working really hard at this, so if it fails, it's not my fault. Because I put in every minute of time that I could.
Camille: The problem with that is we are then mix up productivity with the idea of doing a lot of work. Yeah. And productivity is actually about doing the right work. Yeah. So I think this taking a break, like knowing when to pause and rest, even if it's a moment of rest to reconsider your priorities of the day. Yeah. Is a great tie for productivity.
Camille: So these two, even more so when we, we think of them as separate, they actually depend on each other.
Camille: Productivity actually depends on rest. Yeah. Either because you have to rest your brain in order to be productively doing work. Because I'm trying to be efficient, so if my brain is tired, it's gonna take me a lot longer to do that next task than if I'm on it. Like my brain's fresh and clear.
George: Those musicians out there. What I would say is it's the same thing as the difference between the music is in the spaces, not the notes. You can't have music that are solid notes of no rests. You can't, it's exhausting and it's not good.
Camille: Yes. I like this. Productivity is in the spaces Yeah.
Camille: In the pauses. Absolutely. Yes.
Camille: That's a perfect example. I love that analogy of the idea that if there is no space then that that thing can't, like music can't exist without space between notes and productivity can't exist without space between activity. Yeah. If you keep jamming them back to back to back, it's a mess of work.
George: It's , it's a mess of work. Yeah. I could see where somebody would try to hack this by saying, okay, so I'm doing this piece of work at this time, and then I'm gonna take a break from that, but fill that gap space to do this other thing.
George: Like I've got 10 . Tasks and I'm like, I'm not really taking a break. I think I'm taking a break from that thing to do this other thing. Why does that not work?
Camille: Because you're still working. Even if it's like I'm working on a different task, it still work.
Camille: I think you pointing this out is so important.
Camille: Really understand what rest is and stop lying to yourself that you don't need it.
Camille: I know someone now who listens to this podcast. Oh, he knows who he is. And he struggles with the idea of resting. Of not working. He's a workaholic.
Camille: Hmm. And it's like he doesn't want to accept it. He is like, well that's how I do my best. I'm like, you don't even know what your best could be cuz you haven't even tried resting. Yeah. It's because the world has been telling us productivity. Productivity.
Camille: And we've turned it into this extreme definition of that means working all the time. And not true.
George: Not true. Cuz you're working on something else doesn't mean you're resting. You're not even resting from the first thing, you're not doing the first thing. But that's not rest, not the same thing.
Camille: No, not the same thing. And the definition of rest does change for everybody. So yeah, if for me rest means I need a break from work and I need to go for a walk around the block. Yeah. Like most people would benefit from that in the. That's a great way to rest, but even if resting is , I'm gonna sit and have my lunch and engage with TikTok instead of work and let my brain mush out for a bit.
Camille: Do that. Like that's okay to shut your brain off and let it get distracted by something else for a while. Yeah. And it's, it's necessary. I guess It's not even , okay. It's necessary. We have to find the balance between when we're gonna be really productive and incorporating rest into that concept of productivity.
Camille: That's really the balance that we wanna find in that concept.
George: I have a question for you about this. I don't know if it's about rest, but I'm thinking about context switching. So I remember asking former boss of mine about how he handles his punishing schedule. I've told you about this a long time ago.
George: So how do you run your day? How do you organize your day? And he, his admin would set up like he'd have eight to 10 meetings every day, cuz everybody's demanding on him. But he'll make sure that the meetings are, first of all, no longer than 45 or 50 minutes so that he gets time every hour. To go look at something else.
George: Actually, he's one of two things. If there's a couple of quick tasks that came up through email, I could handle him a minute. I do that maybe with a few of them, or it gives me time to absorb what happened and write notes and basically switch context for next meeting, which is also what therapists do.
George: Those sessions are 50 minutes, not an hour, so they can write notes and switch context. So I wanted to ask you about that.
Camille: Yes. I was actually taking some notes on this for some future episodes where I do wanna take a deeper dive into productivity and how you do it well.
Camille: Okay. The one thing I'll say about this context switching is there's this idea of actually being present. Yeah. Like being more present in the work is, is also what productivity requires of us. Yeah. And so instead of going through the motions of all of his meetings in the day and I've been that person. I'm showing up one meeting after another.
Camille: Tell me what I'm supposed to do. Duh. And it's, this doesn't even take a lot of time, so you don't even need that 10 minute break in between. That's ideal. Mm-hmm. . But if you don't have the time, this is harder on Zoom. It was easier when you were walking from one conference room to another.
Camille: Mm-hmm. But I still think that it's important that you shut down. Even for one minute, you can be one minute late to your next meeting. The world's not gonna end, and you do that reflect on what happened, but most importantly, get in the frame of mind for what needs to happen next.
Camille: How do I need to show up to this next conversation? How you show up for a one-on-one is very different to a board meeting or a vendor contract agreement or a client onboarding. Mm-hmm. or whatever it might be, a coaching conversation. So thinking about being intentional about how you're gonna show up for this next engagement that you're gonna have.
Camille: Yeah. That's what I think of when you talk about that context switching, which I think is really important. It's, closing off what happened for me, it's like, okay, I need to remember these to-dos and these things. And then it's moving into the, how am I preparing my mindset really around what, how I need to show up next.
George: Well, okay. Yes. Then here's what I'm getting from this. This is awesome. It's not the same as rest, but this thing, what we're talking about, how you effectively switch context, is a nice tool for teaching people how to rest. Because if you wanna swift into rest mode, you gotta do the same thing.
George: You gotta say, okay, what am I gonna do now to release my previous thing and switch context into rest context?
Camille: You would absolutely use it for that. And I think that's part of one of the things that's missing, ? When we go to lunch, we don't say, okay, now I'm gonna put my work email down. I don't need to actually look at my phone for work stuff for the next hour.
Camille: The world's not gonna end. Yeah, I'm gonna enjoy my lunch.
George: Or whatever, what you need to do to get the thoughts that are in my meeting outta my head on on a paper. So that get it out.
Camille: Even better. We should be doing that consistently throughout the day is, I have a bunch of thoughts in my head. I need places for them to go. Not treating your brain as a file cabinet, but you need
George: to Murray condo, your mind.
Camille: Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh. So good.
George: Okay. Yeah. Cool.
Camille: There's so much cool stuff we can talk about here and productivity and , there's simple things that people can do.
Camille: So we'll spend some time on that in another episode. But back to today, I have one more example Yeah. That I wanna hit on because Okay. I think this one is also a very important, tricky balance for business owners to find. Okay. And it's on the one hand you like, don't quit. Like never give up.
Camille: Yes. I thought of Galaxy Quest. What do they say? Never give up. Never give in.
Camille: I forget.
Camille: Best movie ever.
Camille: So there's the don't quit side. And then on the flip side, there's, don't let any opportunities go by. Yeah.
Camille: So focusing on the don't quit part. So this idea like, don't ever quit or give up on yourself or your ideas.
Camille: Don't be a quitter and as long as you don't quit, you'll succeed. Yeah. So on the one hand, yes, persevere. If you keep chasing a bad goal or idea, it won't magically get good. Yeah. So you have to quit sometimes. And I do see people who, and I see companies do this, where they have this goal and they're like, well, we gotta see it to the end.
Camille: I need the closure of finishing the thing, instead of recognizing , this is no longer a good path and we gotta pivot.
Camille: Oh yeah, I got that problem. It's this, it's the sunk cost fallacy. Yeah. I've already invested all this time and energy into this thing. I should see it through.
Camille: Instead of, it's a bad idea. Cut my losses, move to this next thing. And so that's where the don't quit. Never give up. They're saying that to people who are giving up too early. This again gets back to the, what's the extreme messaging that's grabbing our attention. Yeah. It is for those people who tend to give up too early.
Camille: But if you literally follow that through on everything that you do, you are gonna waste time on bad ideas, bad pursuits that are gonna waste your time and slow you down. Ugh.
George: I'm gonna tell a story about myself cuz this is our, this scenario where it hits me. Where I should quit sooner is usually with people management.
George: I mean, now the peop the team of people that I manage now is fantastic. It's this great harmonious team. So I don't have this problem now, but in the past I've had problems with individuals where I feel arrogant, like, and whatever. Like I'm such a good manager that I can manage this person through this problem. They can be reclaimed, they can be fixed. I'm not gonna give up on this person. And I'll tell stories about this to some people and they're like, why are you still dealing with this person?
George: Why don't you fire them or move 'em along? Like, no, no, no, no, no. Come on. I can see this is work. I understand what the problems are. I, I, I want to do this. In every situation I can think of, or I've had this problem and I've told somebody about the problem, they're, they laugh at me, they were right. And I should have found a cutoff time or action. I'm declaring defeat.
George: This is not fixable. It's not a fixable problem. I need to give up. I'll be better off. Who cares if the other person will be better off, but I'll be able to be more effective everywhere else that needs my attention. This is sucking up too much my time. This is where it happens to me. People management, ugh.
George: Kills me.
Camille: Oh, that's such a good example. That saying higher slow, fire fast. Yeah, so it's so spot on because we do want to believe, especially if you're a good leader like you are and who actually likes leading people and coaching people. Yeah. Love it. Like you also like the challenge.
Camille: Of like, I can do this. Yeah. That is a, that is an excellent example in it. It is so tricky for especially new business owners or small business owners who , they don't do a lot of hiring. Mm-hmm. And they have a small team, and getting rid of one person is like, oh my gosh, that's gonna kill us in terms of the workload because it's one out of five people on my team is huge. Yeah.
Camille: So thinking about even the ramifications of letting that person go, but boy, one bad person on your team it's never worth it. It's never worth keeping that person around for the long term.
Camille: But it is so tricky to know when to quit and when to persevere, cuz I also see people do the opposite where they're ready to fire somebody absolutely too soon. Yeah. I'm like, you did. Did you even like give them a chance? Do they even know you expected that of them? Yeah. I see that place very often. It's like, no. True. They did not know. Yeah. So.
George: The one plus side of my flaw here is that I have some great people management stories to tell.
Camille: Okay, we're gonna, we're gonna have some great guys on people management.
Camille: So that's the don't quit side. Yeah. On the other side of the extreme is that you chase after every opportunity. At any time you have an opportunity to grow your business, don't let it pass you by. And so this sounds great, ?
Camille: Cause it's like, yes, every time I see these opportunities, I've gotta be willing to jump in on them. Yeah.
Camille: However, If those opportunities continually have you changing directions in your business. Mm-hmm. and you don't stick with any one of them long enough to see it through so that it can actually like deliver results. This is a bad idea. Yeah.
Camille: So you wanna be ready to evaluate the ideas. You don't want to engage with every single one, though. And this is where strategy comes in. This is part of why you need this strategy. Because the thing strategy is, yeah, that thing like everybody's like, wait, why do I need strategy?
Camille: This is one of the reasons why. When opportunities show up, that's your filter. Does this actually align with by strategy? Okay. Yeah. Awesome. What does it actually mean? And I know business owners who are chasing so many ideas with no strategy or plan that it's literally not clear to me, and I'm pretty good at this stuff.
Camille: It's really not clear to me what their business model is. Hmm. It's a person trying to make money. They almost seem like a grifter at some point. Cuz it's like, I'm gonna try this, I'm gonna try that, I'm gonna try that. Get this up, . I know that sounds awful. If anybody Yeah. Any of you out there are doing this, I don't mean that, that badly.
Camille: We're desperate to get money in the bank. Yes. That I understand. But what we miss out on is that this is actually slowing us down, not speeding things up.
Camille: I have a couple examples of this. So I know one business owner who they have been bouncing around from one idea to another where I really don't know what their business model is, when I think I know it, I hear about another thing they're doing.
Camille: I'm like, well, that doesn't fit at all. What is that thing all about? I have no idea.
Camille: And what it has meant is that for over a decade, they've struggled financially. Their pursuit of money is not paying off literally. Yeah, they keep pursuing like, this thing might make me money and that thing might make me money.
Camille: I'm gonna try this other thing. But they don't stick with any one thing long enough for it to actually pay off. They've never felt financially stable in their business.
Camille: Oh, another example of this is that yeah, I know another business owner who has been pursuing different idea because they were like, okay, I'm ready to move on from the business that I have cuz I'm bored with it. I wanna move to this next thing.
Camille: But them chasing all these other ideas has actually been slowing them down because their business wasn't ready for them to step away. Because they went off and started pursuing new ideas without having a strategy for how they were gonna do it, that plan that they had, that they wanted to have happen in two years is now minimum four years.
Camille: Oh my goodness. So they slowed themselves down by not having this strategy cuz they went off and, spent time chasing after what I call the shiny squirrels. It's the shiny object or the squirrel and I, yes, it's both. It's shiny and it's a squirrel and I'm a dog trying to chase it all down.
Camille: So when people go after them, they think, oh, this is gonna be a quick win. That's gonna be a quick win. No it's not. They're slowing down their long-term growth and development of the company.
Camille: So the trick here though is we've talked about this before, how much of business success is related to luck.
Camille: Yeah. And how we don't like, we don't wanna acknowledge that because it means I don't have control over this thing. Mm-hmm. To some extent. Yep. But that's also true. Like we've talked about, I don't have control over the outcomes. But I do have control over how I do that. And so this gets down to the how, which is as opportunities show up, I need to be able to evaluate them quickly.
Camille: Okay. And make a choice. Cuz sometimes the opportunity is for us. And that to me is the luck component. Oh, this opportunity equals luck happened. And if I'm really good at what I do, I'm ready to evaluate it and adopt it into my. And by plan for my business. Yeah. So you do wanna be open to opportunities.
Camille: You do wanna keep your ears and eyes open to all of those. And you wanna know what's happening out in the world because sometimes that is the pivot you have to make. You don't want to try chasing all of them down all at once because that's not a business. That's not a business model.
Camille: That's you, again, grifting trying to find as fast away as you can to make a bunch of money.
George: Okay. I have two I think real quick anecdotes. One is when I was growing up, when you were a little baby, I remember our dad telling me all the time, George, life is a smorgasboard. I love that phrase.
George: I still sticks with me about explore things. We want to expose you to give you new experiences, all that stuff. But now I'm thinking, yes, true life is a smorgasboard, but that doesn't mean you have to eat everything. You're not gonna eat everything on the smorgasboard. You can't do it. Yeah, you go to an actual smorgasboard.
George: It's really bitter if you come in with the plan. If you go and pick something of everything, your, first of all, your plate fills up before you get through the vegetable courses. And then secondly, you load up everything and it's not a good experience. You really need to think.
George: And that leads me to my other quick anecdote about food. I have a little guideline for myself when I pick desserts. I prefer salty things more than sweet things, but I love a good dessert. And if I go to a place that has a billion desserts, how do I pick? What's helped me is like, so you and I both love chocolate. Chocolate is a go-to thing for most things.
George: However, I can get chocolate anytime. I'll go to your house. Chocolate is there.
Camille: I'll make it worth it.
George: Yeah, yeah. But I usually decide if I see something on the menu that I can't often get at home, and it's usually citrus.
George: My rule of thumb is if there's a citrus dessert, like a lemon, Or something like that. We don't really ever have citrus desserts at home. I never buy anything citrus at the supermarket for dessert. I can only really get that at a restaurant. So what helps me decide amongst the million dessert options is if there's a citrus thing, pick that decision's done.
George: I'm happy it gives me variety, but not too much variety. I don't, I'm not caught by the paradox of choice. So I've got this little rule that helps me slim down and figure out which opportunities I should let go by.
Camille: Everybody, george has a strategy for desserts. I'm not sure, but of course he does.
Camille: Yeah. No, but that's such, I mean, that's such a great simple example of what we basically all need in life is we need this decision making framework for framework. Yeah. So many little things in life that will help us. Again, we've got a deep dive on that, on how that relates to productivity. These better ways of doing decision making.
Camille: But it's really important when it comes to these big opportunities that show up in your business. You need something similar. You need a way to evaluate, do I quit on this thing or persevere to the, yeah. Do I, , pursue this opportunity or walk away?
Camille: Yeah, those are not easy choices. Those are not easy decisions to make.
Camille: I do wanna emphasize that for this one, it's tricky enough that you really should not do it on your own. So if you really are up against I need to quit or not quit, I need pursue this opportunity or not. And it's gonna affect how you're running your business.
Camille: Yeah. Or what your business model is, or , any of these things that are major decisions about your business. This is where I really think it's important to have a good thought partner.
Camille: That could be a coach, a mentor. It could be other business owners who you trust and have a good rapport with somebody who can help you do better critical thinking.
Camille: Mm-hmm. And assess the ideas more on their merits than on what you feel. Because we are really good at convincing ourselves that something is a good idea if we want it bad.
George: If there were only people out there I could hire to be a thought partner for my business, if only were there were such a person.
Camille: I know. It's too bad nobody has thought to create a business coaching role or small businesses to help them with these critical decisions.
George: oh
Camille: my gosh, who is? I'm so happy. I know who knew you would get so much joy from all these little moments in the podcast where you're like, this is a good joke. Promotion time. I know. Do you think the listeners are gonna get tired of that joke? Yeah. I hope not. ? Yeah. Yeah, probably they're, they're already rolling their eyes like, Hey,
George: George, not only am I tired of that joke, I saw that joke coming about 20 minutes ago.
Camille: Exactly.
Camille: All right . Let's wrap things up here. Okay. I do wanna bring this back to the whole theme of our podcast, which is the Belief Shifts. Okay. We talk about them. I, I love that we say shift because we aren't saying believe it or not, it's not a black and white thing.
Camille: Yeah. Like we need to shift and we need to recognize that we're shifting back and forth between these beliefs. Okay. So when we say a belief shift, like planning it over, winging it. Yeah. What we're saying is I want you to mostly plan it, but I'm also acknowledging like sometimes you are gonna have to wing it.
Camille: Yeah. So even if the belief shifts, there is this balance that you have to strike within them.
Camille: The default is usually winging it, which is why we emphasize these. We default to winging it. So start working more towards planning it, but also don't beat yourself up if you've gotta wing it sometimes.
Camille: Exactly. That's the best result. Like now, there's no time for planning. I gotta go figure this thing out. That's actually a really great skill for small business owners to be able to figure it out.
George: If you have a pet or a child, exactly what we're talking about. I mean, like this happens with, with the parenting all the time and the conversation that my wife and I have about this is when we have to decide, ah, we were gonna make dinner, but we can't.
George: If something happened and we're gonna let ourselves get takeout, it's fine. You gotta wing it sometimes. Don't beat yourself up about it. Don't do it every night. It's okay. Sometimes it's gonna happen.
Camille: Yes. Don't default to or count on the wing it every night. Have a plan, but then be okay with, oh, sometimes we're gonna have to go do this other.
Camille: I'm gonna wing it tonight cuz life happens. And it's that way in business too. Yeah.
Camille: It's also the same when you think about foundations over quick fixes. Okay? So yes, go towards building strong foundations and less quick fixes in your business, but sometimes you need a good quick fix to get through this moment.
Camille: Okay. Like sometimes like I don't have time to be all foundational about this thing. I need. I've got this gaping hole in my business and the way it's running, I'm gonna do this quick fix. Always come back to making it per some permanent foundational solution. Yeah, because the problem with the quick fix is you're gonna keep re-fixing.
Camille: Like the quick fix is never permanent. They never stick, or they're never for the whole system of business. But that doesn't mean never do them. It doesn't mean like, oh my gosh, I've, I need to put everything on hold while I build this foundational solution to this problem I have.
Camille: No quick fix can be, it's like the stop gap. I'm gonna do this for now. Yeah. Hold thing's in place. I'm gonna put this piece of gum in this hole to stop the leak while I go get the actual patch to fix it. It's kinda like that. Yeah. Yep. Sometimes you gotta do it. Yeah, absolutely. Okay.
Camille: And then same with last example I'll give is micro moves over massive action.
Camille: Hmm. Massive action is great when you can. And the reason I emphasize the micro moves is because massive action is harder to do. Yeah. And people will tend to wait until they can take massive action to make progress on something and that's not helping you. So you'd be surprised how far you can get with a lot of micro moves working away at something.
Camille: But that doesn't mean never make time for massive action in achieving your big goals.
George: What I find interesting about that, because I'm thinking now about a lot of what you've said in previous podcasts when we've talked about micro moves, I agree with you. Absolutely. Micro moves are much easier than massive action. But I think massive action is easier for most people to understand than lock into the idea that micro moves.
George: Because you're spending a lot of time telling me about, look, I worked at this workshop and I'm seeing people about why they should adopt micro moves. It's hard for them to get into that space where it's what is going on with that?
Camille: Part of it is that we're not good at building the processes or the routines for making micro moves on goals.
Camille: We're not taught that that's what goals are about, basically. Yeah. Okay. A goal means I'm gonna do some massive action and people talk about it that way too. Mm-hmm. You'll hear the motivational gurus talking about how you gotta take massive action on your goals. Yeah.
Camille: Yeah. I, I also have to do a bunch of micro moves cuz I might need to build up momentum to what that massive action should be. Yeah. And I know people who get really put off by the idea of when am I ever gonna have time to take some massive action. And then you get to the other extreme of, I guess I have gotta give up my whole weekend so I can work on this big goal.
Camille: And , that thinking starts to perpetuate. Can I speak to your audience?
George: To the audience? . Audience,
Camille: of course.
George: Look, Camille knows a lot about this stuff. Let her help you understand why micro moves are a big thing, or don't. Trust her. Either learn how micro moves can work or don't bother learning. She knows what she taught. Trust her. Micro moves are good. Get into it.
Camille: Wow. You were very, I don't pretty intense about that one.
George: I do. Micro moves are a very good thing and they're very easy to start adopting. Once you get into the mindset of that, once you adopt this belief shift. Until you adopt this belief shift, I st It's baffling why people wouldn't think smaller moves are easier than bigger moves.
George: But I, yeah, I, I get why you're saying that. People need to understand that it's valuable.
Camille: Yes. And I think that the key to being able to do micro moves might be part of the reason why people don't do them as well, which is it means you have to have a plan. Mm-hmm. Like I to know what the micro moves are on my goals, I know what all the micro moves are in all my day-to-day businessy stuff. But when it comes to my goals that sit outside of my day-to-day work, yeah. It's harder to know like, what's that one small thing I could do now that push things forward in my goals.
Camille: And that means you have to have a plan that breaks things down small enough that you can do them, which was the episodes that I did with Jim before these, which talked about that gold cascade process.
Camille: That's really what it's for is so you can get small enough that you can take meaningful action and not, pretending your micro moving when you're actually fusing around. Okay.
George: Yeah. Cool. I get that. Awesome.
Takeaway
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Camille: All , so the big takeaway, find balance that works for you and your business. It is so critical to creating a sustainable business.
Camille: Trying to work at extremes, we know inherently that's not sustain. And yet somehow we think we're supposed to do it.
Camille: Yeah. So stop doing that. Stop lying to yourself that you're the exception. We all have different levels of how extreme we can work, but we all need breaks. We all need rest. And we also all need help making these tough decisions.
Camille: So remember that some of the stuff that makes for great, great headlines or great quotes, they aren't really what true high performance is about.
Camille: Hmm. They're at the extremes, and they're speaking to those of you who don't believe that thing. But balance is the key. Balance is where it's at. That's the only way that you can push yourself without losing yourself, I think, is to find balance. Yeah.
Camille: That was fun.
George: That was fun.
Camille: That was part two. And there's no part three, we're gonna talk about something else next week.
Camille: So thank you everybody for listening. Please leave us a voicemail. Go to the belief shift.com. There's a little widget. You can leave us a voicemail, what you think about this. Maybe you disagree with some of this stuff. I'd love to hear that.
Camille: Yeah, we wanna hear all of it. We wanna hear all of the. Bring it. If you have questions, other topics, things you want us to talk about, leave us a voice message.
Camille: Or you can follow us on Instagram @TheBeliefShift you can leave us a message over there as well.
Camille: And give us a review on Apple Podcasts.
Camille: That would be freaking awesome. We got a couple of reviews up there. I'd love to get some more and like hear what people are really thinking.
Camille: So do any one of those things or do all of them, whatever you have time for. Find the balance in doing something to engage with our podcast.
Camille: How about that?
George: Engage us!
Camille: Thanks everybody. Thank you George. And we will be back in your ears next week.
George: Have a great week everybody. See ya.
