Camille: Let's get started people.
George: Yeah, let's get started.
Camille: Our big topic. This is kind of the premise of this whole podcast in the first place. When we first were talking about why would George and I even have a podcast? It was because I have this idea that a lot of the challenges of small business are just the challenges of business in general.
Camille: They're not specific to small business, not everything, but so much of what I run into. When I think back on my big business experience, I realize with the same problems, they just might show up differently. Or some of the solutions might look a little different, but a lot of the solutions are the same.
Camille: It's more about scale than it is about that it's different. Cause at the heart of it, like up business is business. They all have the same needs and serving the same purpose, which is to make us money. But how we do that is different. So this kind of came out of that whole premise.
Camille: Welcome to The Belief Shift. The show that explores what you really need to know about building a successful small business.
Camille: I'm your host, Camille Rapacz: small business coach and consultant who spent too much of her career working in corporate business performance.
George: And I'm George Drapeau, your co-host and her brother. I'm a leader in the tech world and bringing my corporate perspective, but mostly my curiosity.
Camille: Together, we're exploring beliefs about success and how to achieve it. But mostly we're bringing practical solutions so you and your business can thrive.
Camille: So I was gonna start with this idea that I wanna present to you, George, and then see what you would think the big business version of this might look. We're testing out my whole premise here with us. Number one challenge I hear from business owners that I work with is they don't have enough clients.
Camille: The number two challenge is then that there's not enough time in their business for themselves. So, the business they have is all consuming. They're tied down to their business. They're kind of locked into this way of running their business and it makes it hard for them to either enjoy themselves because they're like a slave to their business or to even just do the next thing in their business. So maybe they're like, well, my plan had always been to then do this other thing, but now I created kind of a monster and I don't know how to undo this thing that I've created. So those are like the two different versions of what I hear is the challenges that business owners have. And so I'm curious from your perspective, how this shows up for, is this a small, just a small business problem or is this like an all business problem?
George: It's definitely an all business problem. And as you're saying this, I thought about something about the first challenge I had not even thought about before, which definitely is a question we ask in big business.
George: So I'll ask you when you hear business owners say not enough clients, are they right? Like, do they know what they mean by not enough clients? Are they fully taking advantage of the relationship with their clients? Are they getting enough revenue per client? What do they mean by not enough clients?
Camille: I think what's happening is this is getting into, I think a topic we'll have to dive into in a future episode, which is: that's not really a problem, it's a symptom.
George: Yeah.
Camille: Not having enough clients is a symptom of some problem in their business that they don't know what it is that all they can see is there's not enough clients coming in. Which really means I'm not making enough money in my business. But there's lots of ways to solve that problem.
Camille: And the source of that problem could be lots of different things, but the way they present it is typically not getting enough clients.
George: Yes. I actually have a small business story about this. So we had this pandemic a couple years ago. This COVID 19 stuff came down, everything shut down. True story. Go look it up.
Camille: This is the first I've heard of this. What are you talking about?
George: I know it was really well hidden. How I experienced it my community, where I live, there's a couple of restaurants that we like to go to regularly on regular customers. I love that love being a regular it's big benefits that happen that is both ways. Our local Italian restaurant shut down for just a couple of weeks, but then they reopened for take up business only because the owner had felt like I, I gotta be cooking and I gotta be serving my clientele somehow. And so in our family, what we decided to do to help them was to do a weekly takeout order and tip them way too much and order a little bit more food than we really needed, but it was just like injected cash into the business.
George: And then we started telling our neighbors, Hey, I know everything's shut down, but this restaurant is still open. We love these guys. If you haven't tried them before I post on Next Door, tried to do what I could have spread the word. And it helped they were able to get through that worse period because they had a small group of loyal return customers, not just us, but like us who knew them and would do stuff like, yeah, I'll order food from you more often than I normally would for a little while. These guys had spent time developing relationships, long term relationships with their key clients and they had enough clients to get them through.
George: So like maybe they might think, well, I don't have enough clients, meaning I don't have enough customers coming in and eating, but they did have enough clients. They had enough return business they could invest in which helped in the long term.
George: And in the enterprise one of the problems we have in sales is our sales people are always going after new customers. And what they could be doing is thinking not just short term cut customer acquisition, but long term customer relationship development, land a customer, get that initial sale, learn more about the business, build a long term relationship and a plan.
George: And over the years be able to land and expand and be able to grow that business through natural salesmanship. A lot of times our enterprise guys, they actually do have enough clients if they know what to do with them, but it also requires them to think about some long term planning, not just the short term, I'm just gonna get one sale now.
Camille: You're right. That the problem isn't always I don't have enough clients, it's how you are serving those clients and those relationships. But as you were talking about that problem of am I actually doing my best job to serve? I might even expand the clients into audience. I may have a whole audience of people that are maybe on my email list or that follow me on Instagram.
Camille: And am I even leveraging that audience? Am I serving them well so I can convert them into. Maybe there's enough of them, I'm just not doing a good job of getting them to become clients. Right. There's a reverse of this problem. I see. As well. This is maybe a bigger problem for small business. I don't know.
Camille: So I have clients who they have a certain size audience that is totally dedicated to them, loves them and would pretty much buy anything that they put. So what that small business owner does is keeps creating new stuff for those people to buy. But it's unsustainable because they're one human and then they have like five offers that they're trying to manage all the time.
Camille: This is what creates problem number two. So problem number one, I don't have enough clients. I don't have enough revenue can create problem number two, which is, oh, now I've just created a business that has so many streams of income that I can't properly manage them and market them and like I'm constantly having to create new, which is hard work.
Camille: And so I'm on this perpetual wheel that it's not gonna be sustainable for me. So what they're not focusing on enough is doing a few things really well. And driving that out to get more clients. They have to have a good marketing engine to actually bring in more clients into something that's working really well.
Camille: So they don't lean into that. They just keep looking to the new stuff. So there's like two sides of the coin, I think.
George: Yeah. That's interesting. I have to think about that. Do I see that happening in enterprise too? Well, so Clayton Christensen has this book, The Innovators Dilemma, and yeah, I love that book.
George: You reminded me of that because one of the problems that enterprises have is that companies get to know their core customers very, very well. And they serve those core customers to the point that they can't imagine new markets. They can't imagine in a new customer base.
George: And when somebody else does the, the old legacy company is stuck. They can't innovate or change or think about new things too much. They're, overserving their existing base and they're getting huge and bloated around that. That's kind of what it makes me think about. That happens.
Camille: Yeah. And I think that the challenge with this is, this is why it's so important that people you know, not grabbing for the quick fix or the shortcut to their business. What we're talking about is why it's so important that people develop their own strategies.
Camille: Because what you're trying to build is up to you. So how big you want it to get, how innovative you want to be, what audience you do want to serve all that kind of stuff matters at the end of the day. If your goal in your business is you do wanna be able to serve and have five different streams of income and that's part of your strategy for a very specific reason to you and your business, you should have a plan to do that.
Camille: If you're one human who just wants to basically be like a soloprenuer, then your strategy needs to be different because five streams of income may be too much for you to manage depending on what they are, but that's typically gonna be way too much for you to manage as a single human.
Camille: You gotta scale that back and build a strategy around that. So this do I grow my audience versus do I grow my service offerings? Do I keep sorting the same audience with new stuff? None of these are wrong. These are just strategic choices you make. Where you go wrong is if you're making a poor strategy based on the way you want to operate your business.
Camille: Does that make sense? So if I don't actually want a million dollar business with a team of people running a bunch of stuff, I should probably not create a bunch of different service lines that I can't manage as a single person.
Camille: I think that big business can get in that trap too. I see them pursuing all of these big goals and aspirations, but what they're doing is they overloading current teams with that work. So they're like, well, not only is Team A gonna do XYZ now they're also gonna take on this project and they're gonna now do this work. And every project creates permanent work. So they end up with all of this out of control, levels of work that teams are taking on and people get burned out. The organization doesn't have a strategy for how they're restructuring themselves in order to accommodate that growth.
Camille: Like, oh, that means now we need a department of X, Y, Z, which we didn't need before. But now that we have all this new stuff in our business, we need department X, Y, Z, too, and a person to head it up.
George: That's like five or six different ideas that we just covered here.
George: I know, sorry, but
Camille: it's complicated. Like you have to, and that's, that's why I, I guess my point is that there are lots of different ways to do this, and it's why it's so important that business owners make choices.
Camille: Because without choices you're kind of left to just all these different ideas coming at you and you trying to make the best choices you can. But if you have a strategy and you know where you're going, you can make better, really clear decisions about where you wanna go. That will set you up for the type of success you wanna experience, versus just some organically created business that you may or may not like.
George: So the story I was telling about the local Italian restaurant, one of the things that really struck me about hearing when I was talking to them and they decided to start the takeout business was again, the owner saying, I just couldn't stop cooking. I felt the need to serve the community. It's what I do.
George: It's why I have the business. They went back, their husband and wife went back to their core. What makes them happy about having the business is making food and connecting with the local community. That's their core. They were clear with their core and it's what brought him back even in a difficult time.
George: And it's also what helped them succeed.
Camille: Yeah. I mean, and it that's even taking it a step further, which is really tying back to their whole like purpose and reason for having a business. Which is like the best. If that's really strong and you always anchor back to that in your decisions, especially when it's from that perspective.
Camille: Like, I remember now why I wanted to do this, who I wanted to serve and why. And you anchor back to that being the source of how you make decisions in your business. It's kind of hard to lose when you do that. It's beautiful. When I think about this, you know, problem, number one of I'm lacking in my business leading to problem number two, which is like, uhoh I have this crazy monstrosity that I don't know what to do with. So if you're a business owner who is experiencing problem number one, which is I'm not yet making enough money in my business, or I don't have enough clients, it's not where it needs to be, that puts you in a place of feeling anxious.
Camille: What ends up happening is as the business owner, you go well in and do basically everything you can think of to get the work from clients and to serve those clients. You just busting your buns doing it. And that feels like the right thing to do. And I'm not gonna tell you that's the wrong thing to do.
Camille: Because it's not that you're doing it, it's how you're doing it. That's like the first thing that you start to think of. It also has you saying yes to just about any idea that will bring in money. Like, oh, somebody just asked me if I would help them build their website because I built my own website.
Camille: Sure. I'll do that. Even though my job is actually. Nothing to do with that. This happens, right? Yeah. People go out and say yes, because somebody was willing to give them money for it. And that idea that just the only number that they're looking at to measure their success is the dollar signs. All of this makes sense because the only reason that the business exists is to make money.
Camille: And so if it's not doing that, then what are you doing? But it is a trap because you end up saying yes to just making money and not yes to a business you actually want to create. Not yes to what I'm trying to get to is this other place. So when I think about this, I think about it as you have this problem you're trying to solve in your business and it's the big problem, right?
Camille: So you're trying to solve this problem and every decision that you make is either gonna take you that one degree closer or farther away from your long term goals. Yeah. And in the moment, like when you're making that small decision, you might be like, I'm just gonna say yes to this one gig to do a website.
Camille: But over time these add up to big change. So maybe I only made that departure once, but what if I do really good job? And then they refer me to someone else. Do I say yes again? When do I start saying no to this stuff? Not to mention, I just spent a bunch of time doing work that isn't building my core business, which is to sell candles. I'm making that up.
Camille: So what do I do now? Because I just made money doing this thing, but I really want my candle business to take off. But yeah, I spent 40 hours on this website that I didn't spend on my business. How do I know if it was worth it or not? And business owners are grappling with this all the time.
Camille: And sometimes it's not even at this extreme level, it can actually also be like within your zone of work that you're trying to build, but just be like different kind of client bases. So for me, the version would be, I spend time working on big corporate consulting work, which isn't really what I want to build my business around.
Camille: I want to build my business around small businesses. But that takes time and effort to gin that up, right. From a marketing perspective. Not saying no to big business contracts right now because they close a financial gap. But as I make that transition, I have to have a strategy for how I'm gonna do that, or I'll perpetually be in this space and never really doing the business is the way I want to.
George: I gotta stop you right here, because I don't think that's exactly right. And I think this is really the point you need to make clear. You actually do say no to some of these, we've talked about this. I've asked you about this.
George: Like where do you wanna go? You're so good at serving all these different audiences. Why don't you take more of these bigger contracts or go after that? And you've told me like, yes, I take some, but I am saying no to some of these. I'm not pursuing some. I think you actually do say no to these that are not where your core direction is.
Camille: I do. So I'm using that as like an example of it doesn't always show up as two distinctly different businesses. Sometimes it shows up within the zone of genius as a business owner. But that's an example to me of like, I've made a strategic decision. If I hadn't, I would just be doing both and it would be kind of messy.
Camille: I could do it. If I was anchoring my business around something else that I wanna be excellent at and that I want people to hire me for, but because I've made the strategic choice for my own reasons to focus on small businesses, you're right, I have started to say, so here's one of the big decisions I made.
Camille: I have lots of big business contacts. I'm not marketing myself to any of them. I still have some big business clients. Because I enjoy working with them. They're the ones that I like and it keeps filling in a financial gap. I do only focus on marketing for small business now. So you're right.
Camille: I have made that choice. But my point in bringing that up was just, that's another way it shows up. It can kind of sneak its way into your business if you don't have a really clear strategy. If I was just like, I'm a business coach and I was that generic about it, then all sorts of different options could sneak in that I would be saying yes to, and I could end up cobbling together a business. I don't really like. In fact, I know I would personally for me, that's what would happen. I'd probably end up traveling all the time and stuff that I've done before and I don't wanna do again.
George: To me, this brings up the topic, I hope we'll talk about sometime in the near future about you have a strategy, you've got this plan, but then you have to be disciplined about executing that, staying true to yourself, which is something I find really admirable about you. I talked about this all the time.
George: You do have a clear strategy, but you also have good discipline about holding to that, even when it's really tough.
Camille: And, you know, nobody does it perfectly. And I think that's the main message I would want for people to take away from this is: if you don't want every decision you make to take you one degree further away from your long term goals, but to actually take you closer, that one degree closer, acknowledge that every small decision you make does matter.
Camille: And the way that you keep all these things lined up is important. It starts with having your long-term vision. Having a strategy for how you're going to achieve that vision setting goals that inform you about am I making progress or not toward that end? And then what you're talking about, George, is that, do I have a good solid system for pursuing those goals and saying yes to the right work and no to the wrong stuff. That is not easy to do.
Camille: Yeah. But it's also why I exist, because that's mostly what I help people do is, how do you stay on track and stay focused on those goals and have that conversation to decide what's the right work and what's not the right work to do. But that's what you're ultimately trying to master as a business owner is I need to get really good at doing that all the time.
Camille: I think that's maybe a big business problem too.
George: Oh, absolutely.
George: When I was a software engineering manager in product engineering, there's this common thing where you're building your product. You've done all this research to figure out which market segment is going after, but there's always gonna be this very interesting customer who wants you to make a change to your product that you're not really set up to do.
George: Like the engineers could do it, but it would distract from these really important features that are on your roadmap. There's a process for this. It's called NRE non-recurring engineering. So there's usually in product groups there's a methodology for figuring out when do we break our rule? When do we pull people off the road roadmap to do this one off thing, and you really don't wanna do it.
George: So usually those people are huge pessimist. They're mean but there's a process for thinking about that mostly because the good engineering organization realize we spent all this time doing planning a roadmap, figuring it out. And we so stick to that.
George: We need to follow the strategy.
Camille: Yeah. These are not easy things to do because you realize you're making this decision and in the short term, you're like, it could be really good right now. But these short term decisions don't necessarily lead to long term success or sustainable success.
Camille: And it's a tricky balance of how do you know when to stick to the plan? And how do you know when this is an opportunity and we should pivot the plan. Like the plan actually could be better. These are again, just strategic decisions and moves you have to make in your business.
Camille: Yeah. That's a good example.
George: We're going through this, which belief shift does this map to?
Camille: So I think it maps to a couple of belief shifts we've talked about. One is the core idea of planning it versus winging it.
Camille: As you're going through this process of I need to get more clients, and you're struggling with that, come up with a plan. That means you have to step back for a minute and actually gather some data and figure out what's going on and run some experiments. And I think in a future episode, we'll talk about this idea of how do I do that?
Camille: How do I not just whack 'em all my way through this thing, but actually be thoughtful about how I'm gonna try and solve problems. So that'll be a fun little deep dive we'll geek out on.
Camille: So I think planning versus winging as part of it, and then ultimately the strategy over spaghetti at the wall. Do you have a strategy? Do you know what a good one looks like and how would you know? That's not easy to get to, but once you see strategy, you can't unsee it. Like that's the cool thing about it is once I think you get to the point of, I can see business through the lens of what strategy looks like, you have a different perspective. It's like one day this little light bulb goes off and you have this aha about how you've been approaching this from just I'm gonna try different tactics versus I'm gonna actually have a strategy that informs the tactics.
Camille: So if you're out there thinking, I don't know if I can wrap my head around exactly what she's talking about when she says strategy? Maybe I'm doing it. Maybe I'm not. You're not alone, because most of my clients are just still grappling with that very concept of what is the strategy and how do I come up with a good one? A lot of times small business owners kind of feel like I don't know if I'm smart enough to do business strategy.
Camille: Well you are because you just need to be smart enough about what you're doing in your business. And it takes a little bit of practice to get good at it. It is a worthy endeavor in your business because once you get there, it changes your whole perspective on what you're doing for the better.
Camille: So I do wanna address one other thing as I'm talking about the belief shifts and this whole cool idea of doing strategy, which is this, I know that there are many people listening to this right now. Okay. I hope there are many people listening to this right now is hi mom. The first thing I wanna say.
Camille: Yeah. Thanks for listening, mom.
Camille: If you're listening to this, share this with other business owners, which is this: I know that as you listen to this, if you're still grappling with the idea of strategy, if you're in the earlier stages, you're probably thinking whatever this sounds great, but how the heck does this actually help me get clients right now?
Camille: I have a problem right this moment. I need more revenue. I need more clients. And what you're talking about sounds very long term. I can't wait. I can't wait to get good at strategy to solve that problem. And these are real problems in business. And so what I would say to that is, you can do more than one thing at a time.
Camille: You can walk and chew gum in your business. And that's what we're talking about, which is you have to constantly be keeping your eye on the big picture, the vision, the strategy, and the plan for your business while also solving immediate problems in your business. And you can do both. People usually either, or these things.
Camille: And what you actually have to do is both. And most of my clients, when I'm working with them, that's exactly what we're doing is: what is this big picture? Where are we heading? And what are the immediate things we need to solve in the moment. But because we're doing both the way we solve those problems is helping to achieve the long term goal instead of just being some quick fix, that's not gonna be. Good in six months or is gonna send them in the wrong direction. So you should be trying to do both and have some patience with that long term perspective, but, you know, don't throw the baby out with the bath water either. As you're looking at these problems, really just look at what's happening and start making tweaks to improve what you're working on.
Camille: So, yes, I feel you. I know this can feel like this is really overwhelming, but what we're trying to do long term is get you out of these immediate problems being so urgent and so kind of firefighting feeling. Like I constantly am just having to scramble every day kind of related to when we were like don't get into the trap of feeling like I have to hustle every day for this to work.
Camille: By moving more towards this planful way of working, but it doesn't happen over night. Yet, that's the reason you should start doing it right this moment. It's kind of like, you know, the sooner you start your new health plan, the healthy you'll be sooner, right? Like the sooner I start down this path, the sooner I'm gonna get there.
Camille: So don't put it off. But I do wanna just acknowledge that for so many people it feels like too much to do in the moment because I have real world problems right now. I hear a lot of people say, I will do that after I solve this problem. And I don't think that's the best way to go. I'm curious what you think about that, George, about that idea of like immediate problem versus long term. And do I pick one or the other?
George: Here's what I was thinking as you're telling me. I'm thinking about at times in my life or in my team's life in the organization's life, when I'm thrashing. You know, this model of growth. These concentric circles of being inside your comfort zone, which you don't really wanna be there in the long term, cause you're not growing.
George: And then you want to be like a little bit outside in that next circle where there's stress, but it's exciting stress and you're learning and you're making mistakes and you're growing. And then there's a circle outside of that, which is just too much stress, too much change. And you, when you get there, you're thrashing, you don't make progress similarly.
George: When I'm thrashing, like when I'm busy with my business or busy with my organization, I don't feel like I'm really getting where I need to go, but there's too much work I need to stop. It's painful to do, but I need to force myself to stop, like cut out my meetings or whatever I'm stopping doing for a little while. That's what you get me thinking about, like having the courage and the faith, I guess to just say, look, not only can you do it, but you must do it for a little while.
George: It is hard.
Camille: It is hard. It is so hard to do, to just stop yourself for a minute from the, I like the description of thrashing, because that is like, you're just kind of thrashing about, and it's like, you just almost need to calm yourself and just take that little bit of a step back.
Camille: And it's really hard to do. I think because people don't necessarily think of this idea of creating a long term vision or just stopping to do a plan and think about that for a minute. a lot of people don't think about that as the work. And so one of my focuses for people when I start introducing this concept of being more planful is to think of it as the work and not as planning to do work.
Camille: And I think that mindset matters like no planning is the work that's, that's part of what you have to do. And I do. I wanted your percent agree, like when you are thrashing about, that's probably the most important time for you to stop and pause. And be more planful in the moment because otherwise there's kind of no end to the thrashing once you start it.
George: Yeah, exactly.
George: There's no end. Oh, it's a horrible feeling.
Camille: Yeah, because you're never done. You're like, as soon as I get done with this, I'll be fine. I'm like, are you gonna ever be done? So I have a client that there's a good example of this right now, where she really wants to work on this two year plan to transition out of her business.
Camille: So that's our long term focus, but she has real immediate challenges right now because of what's happening in her industry, what's happening with her business and her staff and all these things. So we are doing both, but we are spending more time on the immediate challenges and solving those to make room for her to spend more time on the long term.
Camille: But we never have a conversation where we don't talk about the long because that anchors all the decisions she makes in the moment. So she was about to make decision A about this hiring process. And we were like, wait, but this might be an opportunity. And so we actually designed a better way to do it based on where she wants to go long term. Because it presented as an opportunity.
Camille: So if she hadn't done that, she would've made a decision that didn't change anything in her business, when she had this opportunity because this person had left. She was like, oh, I have a chance to change how that role works and how I do it because it's right in front of me. I have to go recruit somebody.
Camille: I think those are good examples of just how you think about how you wanna grow and adapt and that you don't necessarily know what those opportunities are and where you can I guess take advantage of those. Taking advantage of what's happening to you in the moment, you're gonna miss them if you aren't thinking about the big picture, because you're gonna react instead of being proactive about it.
George: Yeah. So true.
Camille: And all of that leads to what I think is the whole end game when I think about working with people, which is how do I accelerate your path forward? How do I help you get where you're trying to go faster than you would by yourself? And these are those strategies that help you do that.
Camille: This is a big one. If I slow down, I can actually go faster.
George: Say it again. Say that again.
Camille: If I slow down, I can go faster. And there's actually a phrase about this idea that just, you know, me just trying to run faster on the treadmill is not gonna get me there.
George: So here's the nerdy version that: the slow blade penetrates the shield.
Camille: Oh. Love it.
George: From Dune.
Camille: Yes. From dune. I'm disappointed that a Star Trek quote hasn't gotten in here, but Dune was pretty good.
Camille: Oh, there, Katie just dropped it in there. Slow and smooth and smooth is fast, that the phrase. That's awesome. I don't know who said that, but it's a very common quote. I knew there was something about that.
Camille: So slow is smooth and smooth is fast. That's really what we're talking about.
George: I think we're gonna talk in a future episode about problem solving. You were saying we were talking earlier before. Can we talk about the technique, I guess probably not today about how to find root causes versus just symptoms, because like I think I'm pretty good at it.
George: I can see what happens when people are not good at it. Can you teach that?
George: I think that'd be great.
Camille: Yes. And if you're only listening right now, you can't see me wiggling in my seat doing my little happy dance of like, somebody wants me to talk about root cow's problem solving. This is why my brother is my co-host because you're one of few people who would get all nerdy and excited about that.
Camille: So thank you. But if you're listening and you're not thinking that's a very cool topic, trust me. It's magical. And it's not as hard as you think we'll break it down.
George: Root cause analysis, being able to find root cause problems is super powerful. And if you say, if my sister says you can teach it, I believe you. That's gonna be a huge tool.
Camille: We will do it. All right. I think that about wraps up our whole topic here about small business versus so I think what we rested on was this is an all business problem. So small business owners, rest assured, big business is also still figuring this out. Be aware of your 'I don't have enough clients or revenue' problem creating bigger problems down the road because you haven't been solving those problems with a strategy or a plan.
Camille: It doesn't even have to be that good. It just has to be one, just need to start thinking about it. So start thinking about it. And we would love to hear what you think about all these silly topics that we're talking about and nerding out about. Because we love them, but we'd love to hear what you think. So please follow us on Instagram, we are @TheBeliefShift. That's where you can actually message us, send us some comments and stuff.
Camille: Do also please subscribe. If you haven't already share it with other business owners that you think might wanna nerd out on this stuff with us. That's kind of all I have to say.
Camille: The only other thing I wanna say is our fabulous like podcast producer, Katie, has been her the whole time and she hasn't said a peep and so I just wanna be like, hi Katie. And, what'd you think?
Katie: Peep!
Katie: Yeah, this really rings true for me because you helped me out of this hole myself. So this whole episode, if you're watching you just see me nodding along like yep. Yep. I did that. I did that. So thank you from the past me.
Camille: I wish there was a little sound for when Katie's just over there nodding. You need to that in there where it's Katie just going.
Katie: Oh yeah. I'm sure that wouldn't be annoying right away.
Camille: No, I mean that was just for me.
Katie: Oh, I see.
Camille: You're gonna make me a special recording, right?
Katie: Yes, perfect.
Camille: All right. Thanks for listening everybody. And we'll be back next week.
George: Thanks everybody. See ya.
